I see you point. If having sex first meant I was married to someone, I'd be married to 10 people... that's pretty funny. I know things in the bible were different back in those times. I'm sure it made a lot of sense to people back then to, at least more then than now....

Though the piece of paper thing can be said about a lot of things.

Marriage doesn't mean anything, it's just a piece of paper.

A will doesn't mean anything, it's just a piece of paper.

A birth certificate doesn't mean anything, it's just a piece of paper.

A contract between two people doesn't mean anything, it's just a piece of paper.

The bible doesn't mean anything, it's just a piece of paper.

Funny the power just a piece of paper can have and what it really means. I don't think we actually know the power until it's time for a divorce. When I divorced, I felt that power. Man was it strong.

Like with everything in life, you get back what you put in. If a couple thinks marriage is just a piece of paper, then they are more likely not to get married.

For me marriage is a sacrament and a sacrament is an outward sign of God's love. So I am married because God loves me, or put another way - God loves me that's why he gave me my husband - a heck of a lot more powerful than paper.

Man I wish I can edit my own comments. It's becoming jumbled here. But what you said resonated to me.

God loves me and that's why he gave me a husband....Wow.....

The power in what you just said. That's amazing. It almost brings tears to my eyes.

I know. I'm a mush when it comes to this stuff.......

You're right, paper don't have nothing to do with that.....

I fully agree. Marriage is more than a piece of paper. What the paper represents is that sacrament and that in itself is powerful.

this is a truly fascinating topic. the responses are so educational from a philosophical standpoint. ::)

I definitely agree with the age of having sex. We are not living in a time where moms and dads marry off their young ones at 14 and 15 anymore. But our little ones still seem to be becoming mothers and dads at that age.

My heart goes out to them.

However, marriage to me works if two people want it to work. It's hard working together with someone because people indeed do change. But if two people try and keep trying, there is nothing that they can't accomplish, married or not.

ps: i have had a successful, happy and satisfying relationship with my partner and raised two healthy happy children for the past 6 and 1/2 years without the piece of paper. perhaps it comes down to a matter of culture more than anything else.

have to agree there Bec. even though i am married and have been 4 7 years, to us there is no difference in the paper or not. it is just a peice of paper that cost a freakin heap to get and even more to break. mine is laminated and in my draw. LOL

we got married through choice. i also wanted my partners name for my children too.

I think you're right that culture has to do with it, and/or your own belief system/values.

My husband and I wanted to get married and we did so with a court church with just his parents as witness. Years later, we weren't satisfied as we value our religion, so we went and got married in church. We invited a handful of friends and family and we had a reception at a restaurant. That was that, not a big-to-do at all.

For me, it wasn't the paper. In fact, with our religion, the 8 years we were married by the court, the church did not see us as married at all. So when my husband and I got married in church, we had to do a lot of things: including "living as brother and sister" for several months before our ceremony. It was hard, but we did it. It isn't the paper, but the belief in God. We've now been married for 11 years. 

how fascinating, if you don't mind me asking what is the reasoning behind the living as brother and sister thing?

I dont' mind at all.

Sex is supposed to be only between married couples, and since the church did not recognize our marriage (by the court), we were essentially living in sin (pre-marital sex). So we had to do penance and in the time it takes to prepare for the wedding (about 5 months) we lived as "brother and sister".  Poor hubby.

wow, dedication to the max ::)'s culture and religious differences do quite obviously have a huge impact on the value of things like marriage, perhaps it is because it is based in those aspects (duh becca! should have figured that out before LOL). i have a wiccan background and as does kiall. there are rites we can perform and we even pondered getting married for a bit but there just isn't a need for it in our relationship. this article is proving to be utterly fascinating and quite educational from a philosophical perspective. ::)'s

Thank you for your opinion. I value it deeply. Marriage in my book represents more than just a piece of paper however if that is what it values in yours, I can argue with that.

I agree that marriage takes a lot of money and work, but it is worth it and should be if you plan on being with the person you are with forever.

I know of many couples that are together and have been for a long time and they are happy. It works different for everyone. But I've also seen the consequence of one being in love and the other not or just two people being together and after having sex too soon, it not lasting as long as it could have.

Now I was 22 when I started "doing the do," and I was engaged. I wish I would have waited, to be sure if that person would have waited for me. I'm divorced now.

And I disagree about the tolerance in a relationship. It's so easy to call it quits when you are "boyfriend and girlfriend" than when you are husband and wife. If it is that easy to let go of a marriage, then it was never meant to be in the first place and the the two never loved one another.

I do agree with honesty and communication. But if I'm honest with someone and communicate that I'd like to have sex and she/he communicates back and we do it, I can be pursuaded to get into a relationship built mostly on that. How long do you think this may last? Do I fully know the person? Do I enjoy their company? Can I see myself being intimate with only this person alone. These are big questions that in my opinion, people who are in a relationship are not ready to handle.

Sex:

Yes people were designed for sex. I never said sex was not important or wasn't normal. But just like a book is for "reading" and not "burning," I believe sex has an original intent, a purpose and that purpose and intent can be misused. And as we know it's misuse produces all sorts of consequences. It it was all good, in every intent, there would be no consequences. Nothing bad can come from something that is 100 percent good.

To all the people here who have lasting relationships and did not wait, congrats. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. You are who you are and I appreciate you for that.

But to those that have ever thought about waiting, I just presents good reasons as to why you should.

thoughts to ponder. below i have quoted your reply and posted my response hope that is ok ::) tis all for the sake of my understanding of the topic no personal attacks intended...

"But I've also seen the consequence of one being in love and the other not"

that is pure lack of honest communication from word go is it not?

"just two people being together and after having sex too soon, it not lasting as long as it could have."

that could be the original intention (ie; sex as a pure fulfillment of physical needs) this is outside of the context a bit but still applies in some form. particularly in the context of two highly sexual people in a long term relationship.

"I wish I would have waited, to be sure if that person would have waited for me"

just asking should have received an honest answer should it not?

"It's so easy to call it quits when you are "boyfriend and girlfriend" than when you are husband and wife."

that is the point, it requires more tolerance to keep the other party happy BECAUSE they can leave whenever they want. marriage is harder to get out of, sorry i must have explained myself incorrectly.

"if I'm honest with someone and communicate that I'd like to have sex and she/he communicates back and we do it, I can be persuaded to get into a relationship built mostly on that."

this form of persuasion shows a lack of self control and is not honest in its entirety.

"If it was all good, in every intent, there would be no consequences"

hence the honesty. pure honesty and adequate communication can make it all good. whether it be a long term relationship or a one night stand. (are you referring to only negative consequences?)

i am sorry if i sound a bit full on it is just me trying to understand all the angles of the topic at hand. you seem to be quite intelligent and this is an interesting topic. forgive my inquisitive nature.

gomen nasai  (sorry) ::)'s my name is becca!

You are indeed correct and very candid I may say.

If two people are first honest with one another and there is communication there, they are one the same page with sex so no one is broken or bitter afterwards etc...

But sometimes things just happen and we put a lot of trust in others. I have an STD but I don't know it. I'm fully honest with my partner about just having sex and no relationship. That is all he wants so he is fine with that. But however since I've been with others I have contracted something I was not aware of and have given it to someone else.

Most people with HIV don't know it. Now is it fair to reap the consequence of HIV just for having fun. I was open and honest. I communicated everything and was on the same page with the other person.

My point is take action with as less risk as possible. Dealing with people is always an amount of risk involved. But if you just decide to wait awhile and caution yourself first, you can be better prepared for whatever especially if you take the time to know someone first. I feel you can never truly know someone 100 percent because people change all the time.

But I love your comment. Please keep them coming. I'm enjoying speaking with you. You are very intelligent as well. Have a wonderful day....

The STD thing is hypothetical ofcourse.

I'm trying to wait. It's been almost 2 years.....but I think I can go til marriage.

LOL! yes i got that it was a hypothetical situation ::)'s if i may ask is your reasoning for waiting in a religious base similar to izzy or is it purely from a relationship stand point. kudos for waiting whatever the reason. ::)'s

Sure,

My reasons for waiting is both actually. I want to wait because I feel it is the right thing to do. I feel that is the way God intends for it be.

But on another note, sex in itself is very spiritual to me. It's a combination of two souls becoming one, sharing emotions, and experiencing feelings in a way that only that person can allow you to feel at that moment. That is too powerful for me to handle with just anyone. And I that person to have that same understanding as well. I feel like there is also a power in waiting. Having that person know that I specifically waited for them. That somehow I knew that in a world so big, God was going to direct me to that specific someone, to experience a new world of love only we can share.

I know that sounds like a lot of mush.. but not too many guys feel the same way about the topic. And it's important for the other person to experience and feel the same way before even thinking a direction of a relationship.

Well I guess I'll go watch the titanic now...lol....

that is beautiful and lots mushy hehe ::). i completely understand the spiritual thing about sex.

some random trivia with regards to religion... back in the day (wiccan viewpoint) high priests and priestesses (who were sometimes but not always life partners) used sex to give spirit energy to a spell. of course now days coven wiccans use the challace and athame to symbolize the union of male and female spirits in a spell. but being a partnered wiccan is a little different. because Kiall and i are life partners as well we can utilize either. it also greatens our bond with each other on that spiritual level.

the power in waiting for the spiritual connection i can understand also (although i think the majority of people out there experience only the physical satisfaction). i feel that without it, sex is a pure waste of energy that could be put to better use elsewhere. however, many do not share the same view simply because they have not yet experienced sex on a spiritual level. yet another catch 22. LOL!

ps: ROFL @ titanic comment hehehehehehehe ::)'s from becca!

sorry that makes no sense izzy did the brother and sister thing.... gonna get off the pc my eyes are starting to cross LOL!

big typo: "I can't agrue with that"

Sorry I have to reply to the kathryn who says that sex does not get better with time but only communication.

If I communicated to you directions on how to get someplace. Do you think you can get their perfectly if you don't try first. Communication is key but experience will only get you skillful at something. It's like a job, going to school is your communication but unless you have experience in your skill, most employers may not hire you. You have to have been in the situation before.

You do get better with things over time, almost like practice makes perfect. So the more you do something  you can get better. I agree with the communication, but I'm sure it takes both.

apologies, you are correct. it's almost a catch 22, without time you have no experience (which denotes some form of education in the matter) and without communication you have nothing to learn so you will go through time never knowing any better. interesting choice of analogy ::)'s